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Outdoor Industry Icon Jim Shockey

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[Music] this is the danger closed podcast beyond the books with me jack carr welcome to the danger clothes podcast an ironclad original presented by sig sauer my guest today is a very special friend of mine jim shockey you probably know him from jim shockey’s hunting adventures the professionals and uncharted so he’s been a uh icon of the outdoor industry of the hunting industry for uh for a few years now and it was such a pleasure to get to talk to him uh i also got to talk to him about this now this is a novel and uh so here in the conversation is something pretty special and it’s called uh man of sores the soul catcher and it’s uh i don’t really know how best to describe this but listen to the podcast check it out uh jim sent this to me a few months back and i wanted to make sure that i read it at a time when i could turn everything off take a breath spend some time with it and i’m so glad that i did because it was i’m holding something special in my hands right here so we talk about this on the podcast we talk about the state of the world we talk about politics uh we get into it and uh you might also might know eva shockey jim’s daughter who has been fantastic to me as i entered this this world of publishing and uh this world of really social media and outreach and engagement and all and all of that so uh you can find her online quite a few places and jim is at if you go to gymshockey.com you can see everything that he has going on there uh he is official jim shockey on instagram and he is jim shocky on twitter and facebook so you can follow along with everything he has going on on those platforms so uh if you like what you hear make sure you leave a review wherever you get your podcast leave a five star review to help beat those uh so social media big tech algorithms and uh we’ll keep doing these so without further ado my friend jim shockey and i don’t know how i’m not going to show the cover i’m not going to show the cover of this but wow this is incredible i read it and this is the only book i’ve read probably in the last year because i’m doing so much research i’m reading so many books for blurbs or interviews that i and like i told you when you sent this months ago that i wanted to savor it i wanted to sit down read every word have it be nice and quiet and there this is the only book that i’ve done that with in the last couple years this is incredible and i don’t want to say the name or anything i don’t know how comfortable you are talking about it but i know you mentioned it at least once uh publicly that you were working on something you can mention the name you can say you for for those of you who don’t know this is a book jim shockey wrote this book it’s called man of soul of sores the soul catcher and uh this i don’t even know what category to put this in it doesn’t fit in a category that’s the other other side of it so besides all the political stuff going on out there um in my limited experience in publishing when you don’t fit into a certain category uh it’s it breaks that norm and it’s a little tougher to find that traction and of course once you do those books that are outside the norm then they take off when you when you have something like a uh like a harry potter or you have something like a game of thrones or you have something like that that kind of fit a category but uh not really this this you can’t call this a political thriller it’s not a you know i don’t know where it falls um which made it so captivating to read and i tell you what i love books that are non-linear in nature i have one i have one outlined that’s uh that i’m gonna work on at some point that’s uh that’s non-linear and and jumps around a bit there’s a book called the sun by philip meyer which is essentially the history of texas through the eyes of a of a family from the 1800s up to present day uh and he did an amazing job with it uh but this is a different the way you did this and the way you used a manuscript to tell a story was fascinating i absolutely love this i could not be more thrilled for this book right here i mean and i and i don’t say that lightly you know if i kind of liked it i’d be like oh it was amazing this thing is different and i had tons of respect for you obviously before but this puts you on like a like this is no small undertaking what you did here and it is it obviously shows just the depth of respect that you have for the uh the artwork that you describe in here the cultures that you describe in here it’s not like you just decided to make this up one day and start studying like this is a lifetime of research and passion in these pages telling the story it’s amazing i i think you know i i i wrote when i sent it into you know my agent and i said if you’re going to take it to the publishers just just and i think i may have said this about your book actually uh when you know you can write become a writer and then live life after or you can live life and then become a writer you know so so i i this this novel is actually the reason it’s so difficult to classify it it’s kind of because it’s kind of direct thriller but but honestly go google every single fact in that book and it’s you’ll find that it’s more of a biography autobiography yeah than anything and that that’s you know things you you can’t well you know the deal you can’t say but you know there you go you can read it and that’s why it doesn’t it doesn’t compute for for most of the people that read it although i mean i’m i’m thrilled over the moon happy that you uh you enjoyed it i’m so excited about this i’m so excited about it i’m trying to put together a plan like who to get this to and and all the rest of it but um but i was i started googling things too because at first you know you know i knew your background of course so if someone comes to this without knowing your background without knowing you have a museum up there which i want to talk to you about uh but uh just comes to this they might not google everything right away until they’re about halfway through and then they’re like wait a sec i recognize a name here i’ve heard of that artist here or something something clicks and then they start looking up all these other facets which it was incredible and especially of course being a child of the 80s you wove in some some movie magic some other authors in there that that are part of the story and i love those touch points those uh because people connect with them and there are so many of them in here that that every reader is going to connect with at least one of these one of these things even if they’re not a student of art history or these cultures that you describe essentially from the beginning of time to today if they don’t have a touch point with those there’s a couple more modern references in there that will definitely key off in their head so i think those touch points are important when you’re writing because it connects people to that story in a more personal way and you did it in a way that i’ve never seen done before oh that’s awesome i i i you know you who’s as well read as you are that you have no idea i’m ready to turn this off and go jump up and down and come back to the screen and say yes yes what we were talking about well i’m so excited about it because i remember when you said it to me i was like i want to spend time with it and uh i find today that with everything going on with books and the filming of the amazon series and everything that when i have something that’s really special i want to get to and i put it aside then i keep putting it off because there’s never i can’t make time because there’s so many other things getting pulled in a million different directions and so when you said yes to jumping on the podcast i was like okay this is my excuse to sit down turn everything off i don’t have you know things beeping at me all the time when i’m reading i like to sit down and just just be totally absorbed in the story and that’s what i did with this this week and uh it was a fantastic week it was the first week i had to take a breath in what seems like years so it was really special i got to spend it with this and you trusted me with this and it’s uh it’s incredible so yeah thank you for writing it and you know it’s uh i don’t when did you start writing this did you start it a long time ago and work on it along the way yeah you know i and i i was gonna ask you that i mean i i would spend the whole podcast unfortunately it’s your podcast but if it was mine i want to pick your brains to figure out how you think things through but i um i wrote the first the first page uh over 25 years ago um you know giveaway was dead i killed him that was i mean i had that entire book because i was living it so i know that seems weird but that’s what was that’s what i was doing so so the uh i wrote the first 100 first hundred pages literally i could have written that with my eyes closed watching television and just writing because i knew every virtually every sentence every paragraph for the first hundred pages and then you know then i didn’t have it quite as sorted out in my brain again because i just hadn’t spent the time over the last 20 years organizing it but but it was it was all written already in fact the second and third are you know there because i’ve lived it so it’s really simple that when you well who is it the best writing is is truthful writing when you’re telling the truth it’s pretty simple to write you don’t have to you don’t have to embellish it all but like you say it doesn’t quite it’s cognitive dissonance when you read it because it’s well that can’t be real can it you know but it’s it’s uh there’s a serious amount of fact in that uh oh yeah that was incredible i started checking uh as as i went because i was like wait a second you know i think this is so much knowledge woven in here in a way that seems so effortless which is how the best do it they make it seem you know effortless um but there was so much in there woven in so perfectly uh that it i mean i was yeah very rarely am i engrossed in a book where i just can’t i might stayed up late last night i knew we had this today so i stayed up super late last night rarely do i do that anymore um unless i’m working you know typing away on my own stuff because it’s finally quiet in this house uh so don’t tell my editor that uh that i wasn’t working on book five i was reading your book uh but i wanted to make sure that i got uh that i read it in time to talk to you today when did you figure out uh the the crescendo i was just i suspected you know because i’m in this you know i was kind of searching for it yeah yeah the clues are all through it from the first page yeah so i didn’t figure it out you know the first page but uh but i figured it out fairly early on just because i was looking and because i know you and because i’ve been waiting for this for so long so i wasn’t just going to this with a oh i’ve got to read this to blurb it for somebody or hey i’ve got to read this because i have an interview coming up or you know that or hey i got to go to a certain chapter and find a certain sentence in order to take that out and put it in my novel or to fact check something for one of my novels uh so it wasn’t like that at all it was i’m going in and i’m excited to go in because i’ve been waiting for so it’s been sitting there for like four months now i think and so i was so excited to jump in so i was like a detective going through this thing and i was initial i was just so captured by that non-linear approach which i love and i didn’t know that was coming when you first sent it to me i read that first page you know that initial italicized uh first page and i texted you and was like hey this is amazing i love it but i’m going to hold on to it until i can sit down and not be distracted and not be pulled in a thousand different directions um so that first those those first words are important in any novel uh and you nailed it in this one and and never let up the whole way through like there was never one single point which is very rare that i ever was like uh i’m just gonna skip ahead here i’m gonna go through this a little faster every single page i was like so and i was so happy also so i was having this joy reading it because we know each other and we’re friends and i’m like i was so happy that i was loving it and i was having this experience reading something that you put so much heart into and that’s the thing that separates novels you know just normal novels from other others is that it’s that thing heart it’s that intangible and you can’t you can’t pinpoint it but it’s it’s like anything else in life and with art or anything it’s that that heart um and then this certainly has it so so well done and i’m excited to we’ll talk offline about uh next steps with it because it’s special so so i’m on your podcast and we’re talking about my novel not your novels yours are like rocket ships i mean i see the billboards and the number one near bestseller i mean holy cow wow when i read the the first one uh obviously i knew the talent was there but uh to see what you’ve done since then wow i mean it’s it’s incredible and your voice you know and i think that’s you know the the writing is great and that’s that’s a calling you you you know that you’re calling but but what you’re doing with it when as soon as when you get a voice and that that is so important i just you know see so many people i’m just disappointed well you’re great you made a touchdown pass or whatever you did you know but there but you know what do they stand for where you know other than themselves and you’re out there speaking on behalf of those of us that can’t we can’t opine in in the mainstream media you’re doing it and and like i said when i was told i was literally told in the last four days uh besides the fact that there’s been several say we’ll never touch anything that you’ve ever done in your life we don’t care if it’s war and peace it’s not we’re going to touch it but you know then recently just not interested in in that you know and there you are speaking for us it’s it’s i mean you know i tip my hat i don’t i don’t have my cowboy hat on today but i i tip whatever whatever happens well no i sincerely appreciate that and you’re a huge part of this journey and thank you for blurbing the last book which was incredible such an honor for me and people don’t know this because only you and i know it and a couple of people that were standing around that day was that uh when i got the phone call that chris pratt wanted to do the uh or the option the first novel for the series uh which is before the book even came out it was january first week in january i think dallas safari club at the sports congressional sportsman’s foundation uh little uh little thing that they have um we were standing together and i got that call and uh and so you’re the first person to know that the chris pratt wanted to option this thing for a series which is uh which is crazy so now we’re here all these years later what three or four years later now and uh they’re filming it right now out in in la and it’s uh it’s looking pretty dang good i mean that that’s just so cool i mean that this comes out of your head and now the world’s going to see it i mean it’s anyone that doesn’t you know i don’t know doesn’t tell stories might not know the feeling of of what i’m sure you’re feeling i don’t know but you know because i’m not there yet but uh but you’ve been telling stories for a long time i mean you’ve been you are been doing this at the highest levels for the the longest time with different shows from jim shockies hunting adventures into the professionals and to uncharted i mean these things were i mean groundbreaking with uncharted of course uh and professionals one of my one of my favorites so we sit down with the family those are the these are the only shows that we’d watch really on on an outdoor channel and we did that my daughter was was younger and so she feels like she uh you know she grew up with you guys also and she wanted to go hunting at a very early age so she got her first year at age seven and we’ve never stopped since we put those ipads away those phones away and we get outside or these places that don’t have cell service or you know at least you leave your stuff behind and spend quality time out there together or our son age 10 now we went to africa together after i went over there and did some uh training up of an anti-poaching unit uh they asked me to come back with my family so i came back a few months later with my family and our our little guy got his first animals out there in africa and uh there was a picture that uh so we were in that reddish reddish sand that they have out there there was a lion print and he went up and he put his without anybody telling him he put his hand in the sand next to that lion print and i took a picture of it and it’s so cool to see this big paw and then his little handprint next to it it was just a such a special trip but um but you were a big part of that in uh in uh you know captivating these kids at a young age watching your adventures on tv telling those stories on uh on television and uh and now here we are as a family it’s it’s a part of who we are every year that’s where we connect because every day here is so busy but where we connect is when we get outside and when we go afield and it’s just such a special place and i know family for you has been a big uh part of your your life as well from hunting with your dad and eva and getting the whole family involved in it in a very natural way and then sharing that with her you know that’s such an important part of the lifestyle you know hunting is is you know the kill of an animal is just like that it’s not it’s a not even a two-dimensional you know that’s of a sphere it’s a tiny little sliver of it and and you know family is is to me the most important part to be successful to you know get the accolades for accomplishments means nothing if family your family values and your family aren’t there with you and you weren’t part of their you know their growth their i guess the creation of that whatever that family unit is and then onto it you know our four grandchildren now you know it’s without that it’s it’s a pretty facile i don’t know meaningless success so so yeah family for me is uh is extremely important i’ve always said that and that hunting is camaraderie family humor adventure and animals you know it’s but it’s not you know not the kill that’s like even the animal part that’s the title of it so it’s it’s uh it’s great to hear that i didn’t realize that your children were into hunting already that’s cool oh yeah yeah from a very it was very natural i didn’t push it we didn’t talk about it uh you know we had outdoor channel on in the background and in the evenings kind of making dinner and that sort of thing and the kids would be outside and when we lived in san diego uh when i was still in the seal teams and uh yeah our daughter just got you know i think she saw that and she was just captivated by it she started asking questions about it and you know very naturally wanted to want it to go so luckily uh you know i knew a few few people and knew uh uh and we could get out there and and do it so um so yeah we’ve been we’ve been getting out at least once a year uh ever since as a as a family um but yeah that africa trip was pretty special and here’s uh i have this book here i know that uh you had a trip uh together that uh that you talk about where uh i i think uh you’ve got our first animal out there maybe yep i think uh i may have the same hey look at that uh she’s been so fantastic to me as i launched you know oh look at that oh that’s so amazing i love it that’s great that is fantastic yeah she’s she always makes sure that uh i know clearly that she has had a book published and i have not well i was gonna i was gonna ask you about that about uh a book that chronicles some of the uh the the things you did in uncharted or the professionals or gym shockies hunting adventures anything that does that photography or something that’s different than what uh what we just talked about here um with the with the novel is there any have you ever thought about doing anything like that sharing some of that photography or some of those stories in that in that way yeah you know i actually have right now and you don’t know this but i i’ve got a um i’ve kept a journal for 25 years religiously it’s hundreds of thousands of pages and and uh i i actually went uh through just the bear guiding on vancouver island and did a you know a book and it’s it’s all edited it’s it’s actually ready to go to design um so it’s at that stage and i’ve also done two humor books you may not know that either but that’s whereas uh i wrote in back in the olden days i mean i’m getting old but back in the in the 80s and early 90s i i was back page of many magazines with under a pen name and uh i think i was writing under ace toddler and you know sometimes under my own name but but so so i have two humor books also completely edited ready for design and and i held off on any publishing of those books and my journals you know going through those to publish them just because i didn’t want them to interfere with what you’re holding in your hands or that knowledge man of sores yeah i just felt i mean those are no-brainers i can i can self-publish i can or i get a publisher for those and my own audience on social media i can sell those books um it’s not the same it’s not the same and that’s why when you ask about it yeah sure i can do it and and that’s again a pretty easy project for me to do i’m not sure how i divide them up by year the journals by you know trips asia africa it was 300 days a year on the road for 25 years amazing you know i could divide it up in numerous different ways but but i it’s more important to me that that book that you have gets published and then once it’s published it’s then i can then it’s too late it’s out there then i can put out the other books um and also you don’t know i’ve got another novel that i wrote back in 1991 um called the lordly and and it’s um it was a uh historic fiction that uh back then i sent her here in canada and and it got i don’t know made it out of 2000 submissions made it to the top ten but they only published three that and that was 91. i can’t remember what was going on with the economy so there was some other reason so i’ve got that one as well and i’m kidding yeah it’s just waiting for uh but but that one that you’re holding is is the one that i want out that’s that’s my baby you know in effect that’s my life so the other ones yeah that was part of what i was doing and i could talk about you know the trips and and uh those adventures you know in a sort of journal form tell the story but i don’t want to do it that way i want to do it that way got it okay well i can see why because this is i mean this is special so this is yeah i don’t even know like i said it’s hard to classify exactly you know what you have here it’s it’s that special um usually things fit in a category uh but what’s cool about not fitting that category is like the great works out there i’m pointing over here because all my books are are stacked up here uh on now across from me um but the the greats are are those ones that are that are different that you can’t put into a category so i mean that’s and and sometimes when i’m going through it when i’m reading something i say uh you know what would a net i could kind of have an editorial eye because i’m reading doing my stuff i’m kind of editing as i go which they tell you not to do but i’m kind of doing that anyway because i have to get to a get a chapter to a place where i’m happy with it knowing that i’m going to go back and refine it a little bit more but there’s a once again another intangible getting that chapter to a place where i feel good enough to go on to the next one and i don’t spend like you know a year on it i don’t spend a month on it maybe a couple days few days sometimes one day sometimes three days but uh whatever it takes to get that chapter that point where i’m like okay i can move on now where i’m not in the next chapter thinking back man did i leave that chapter too early i could have done spend a little more time on it so i have to get it to that whatever that point is before i move on and so oftentimes i read things with that editorial eye and uh in this one zero things they know that i would more for zero things that i had questions about and i don’t think very rare anyway i’ll say that um for me to have that especially and it is almost never that i have it with uh with fiction um although there’s i mean there’s so much that’s not fiction in here it’s hard to classify once again uh which makes it which is wonderful for me to have to have something that’s so different and so special so um yeah we’ll talk offline we’re gonna we’re gonna come up with a with a couple courses of action as we’d say in the in the military uh a couple contingency plans uh a main effort some supporting efforts some contingency plans so we’ll we’ll we’ll put some thought into this perfect yeah but again you know this is your podcast it’s not about me oh it’s about you no no i love i’m using this thing as an excuse to catch up also so it’s uh it’s a perfect excuse for me to get to talk to friends and get to catch up uh that we probably wouldn’t do because we’re both so busy probably wouldn’t just jump on an hour-long phone call just to uh to catch up so this uh allows us to i’m sure everybody’s listening to me we’re just like this is just a phone call but exactly exactly which is the best part about it but uh speaking of catching up so what is behind you is this your office is this part of the museum is this house or yeah i would have loved to have this set up at the museum but this is in my office at my home wow the museum is is way cooler well the museum is pretty special so that opened in what 2019 yeah 2019 we we opened the doors no big great you know grand opening or anything it was people came to the front door then we let them in i think we may have put sandwich boards out on the main road there it’s it’s a pretty out of the way place okay um in in a you know well-heeled little community they didn’t even know it was there uh the the locals so we put the sandwich boards out and then we put a billboard on the highway you know for hand of man museum of natural history cultural arts and conservation yeah so give a little background on that because i you know wasn’t aware that you were doing it until you first posted about it i think you gave a few hints and talked about it a little bit and the first one i saw i was like wait what’s he doing one how does he have time to do all this and and and wow i just had no idea like the depth with which you uh understood and studied and collected um all these things um and uh so how did it all come about how did that it’s been a lifelong journey obviously but how does it how did it culminate in this in this museum well my you know loving soul mate of 36 a little tired of everything being packed in here you know louise was uh well she burst into tears when i bought the building because it was a derelict it was our kids went to school there so it’s a 17 000 square foot school that’s a mile from our house and uh our kids went from grade one to grade six you could go to that school and then it got too small wouldn’t meet seismic wouldn’t meet fire code so they uh decommissioned the school in 2001 and it basically sat there until 2014 when we we bought it was squatters living in there it was uh it was a mess i took four 40-foot containers of garbage actual people’s garbage from inside uh roof caving in there was no heaters no wiring no all the copper pipes were stripped so that’s the building that i bought i said oh this is my you know i’ll get rid of all the junk in the house so uh yeah she burst into tears but but it was that museum i knew that i would do that when i was 10 years old that’s i could have told you at 10 years of age what was going to be in that museum and and i wouldn’t i didn’t know where you know we were dirt poor we lived in a trailer park and and had no money but um i knew what would be in it i didn’t know where or how i’d pay for it so so it just got to a point of gathering for 50 years that um it was time to to give it a venue give it a home and you don’t you know this you don’t own anything i can collect all i want but you don’t own any of these things that are in this room i don’t own them i’m a steward of them for now they’re they belong to everybody especially if if you’ve had the ability like i’ve had you know you read the book to travel the world and and uh gather art and artifacts from around the world for 50 years really and last 25 pretty steady actually not the last couple that’s slowed down significantly well well you had a good run there for for a while though it’s probably i mean time to take a breath and then put that focus on the on the museum and and build that up and uh so 2014 you bought it so that’s a few years of cleaning out that garbage getting it ready figuring out a floor plan figuring out where everything’s gonna go um did you do that all yourself figure out what was gonna go in what place or did you hire somebody that could come in and kind of design it i’ve grown up to become an interior decorator i knew what the answer was going to be by the way but i just felt like i needed that every single little display all the you know fish hooks and the seashells and yeah i i i’m a stickler for detail and and uh might someone even say obsessive about it so so i every single thing in there i’ve done the displays and i’ve placed the displays um organize the installations i i there’s art is a is a an important thing in my life and there’s an art in display if it’s done properly and and i think what happens in many museums and i’m you know this is probably a little negative but it it’s the truth when you when you try and make education the primary focus of of a museum you lose the point that it’s got to be entertainment first and you educate with entertainment it’s like storytelling you can educate you can teach people you’ve got to entertain them or you’re going to lose them i mean who i go to museums some of the best museums and i you know it’s like oh i checked my policy and and it’s because i you you know i can’t read through pages of for you know the big board and people walk in front you can’t focus so so this museum is there’s none of that it’s uh state of the art i’ve never seen it anywhere around the world so i’m calling it state of the art because i haven’t seen it but it’s just little tiny numbers like an easter egg hunt you have to look for the numbers and then we’ve got ipads because as you know we’ve been filming for this entire time so we’ve got archival footage going back 25 years and and from everywhere around the world and we can gather those clips and bits and pieces and tell the story of each piece that’s there on an actual ipad two to three minutes done you know you’re on to the next thing and that’s about how long you can capture somebody nowadays um you know two to three minutes at a museum what’s interesting about this museum and we don’t have pictures over video you know people could see it but it uh it’s the only museum that i know of that the children are bringing the parents and the grandparents oh wow it’s every single day the kids come in and and you know i’ll say i’ll ask the adult so how you enjoying the museum they say well you didn’t know it existed you know they said we had to come and there the kids have the ipads in the beginning because it’s very interactive it’s you know you’re within inches of anything you want there’s no glass oh wow okay inviting you there’s glass cases but but not the majority of the pieces are right there you can put your nose two inches from them and we thought well maybe we should have a limit on the age limit on the kids but uh the kids are the best they don’t touch anything they have that okay they’re working the ipad it’s the adults lean on something or you want to touch something anyway yeah when you get a chance you got to come up and see it oh yeah no i plan on it i want to do that like we planned actually for maybe this spring and cove who knows it was all crazy and getting into canada was i don’t know it was just very complicated even friends that were down here when covered kicked out they just stayed they didn’t even go go home they stayed we did the same thing this winter we have a place down in pinehurst north carolina and we were going to come home after christmas we went there in november i said why you know canada’s locked down we we finally came back april 1st and you know two weeks quarantined three negative tests you had three days mandatory in a hotel a thousand dollars a night you know and and and now mass everywhere and and we’ve had our two vaccines months ago you know and and canada has just been behind the eight ball um you know i’m starting now some of our friends are getting the first shot okay oh wow isn’t scheduled for four months for anybody so yeah i mean it is bizarre to me but uh somebody somebody at a very high level dropped the ball in our country and and there’s no way we should be you know behind morocco in no offense to moroccans but you know your neighbor is the united states you guys are all vaccinated you know if you want it your choice and you’re opening up you know canada i don’t know it’ll be interesting to see uh you know talk to me in six months but we’re gonna lose our second outfitting season we already lost our second spring i think we’re gonna lose our second you know fall in the yukon which second fall yeah what is it doing to other i mean um to outfitters that don’t have these other things going on um concessions fishing up there like we were going to go up to uh what used to be called the queen charlotte’s what is it another hilda guy um so we’ve been up there a few times and uh yeah it was just not knowing made it the decision a no even if it was a possibility because you have to plan so much out of course everybody has so much going on you’re juggling kids your job on schedules i’m juggling filming and all these other things so when something’s so uncertain it just becomes a a no um and or hey we’ll just see we’ll try it again next year or two years from now so i i assume that’s happening to outfitters across canada yeah yeah that’s from your side as a client yeah from the outfitter side we don’t know that it’s a no so we have to constantly be you know ready to open the doors yeah if they say tomorrow you know may 21st we’re going to open up for americans to come up then we have to be ready to go so we have all the expenses we can’t just shut down and say okay for a year and a half everybody gets off and have a holiday we have to keep the doors like you know it’s like keep ready to go running the whole time just and once i gotta rev it up here shut it down get a you know maintain it then start it up again and keep it going ready to go so unfortunately there’s going to be a lot of outfitters up in canada and fishing camps that um aren’t going to survive this uh you know they’ve been you know deposits are in what do you think all that money is that they’re keeping the doors or ready to go that’s deposits when the time comes well you can’t take it even for the balance you can’t take somebody because you end up losing money they’re just going to declare bankruptcy it is it’s going to be a we haven’t had our medicine yet on this yeah it’ll be cod liver oil and and it won’t be good for your cod liver oil it’s just just going to be our medicine we’re going to have to take it so brutal like i say i’m not i’m not king of the world if you if i ever run for king of the world please vote for me because of course yeah and if you run a vote for you you just i’ll be vp yeah there you go we need common sense at the highest levels and and it’s been lacking you know because people don’t make decisions on what’s best for the people that they’re supposed to be leading yeah are ruling leading they’re making decisions based on can i get elected and and this is a you know it’s a anyway that’s a pretty deep conversation i’m sure you weren’t planning to head that direction but it’s uh we’re going to have to sort that out sooner than later because they’ve got to start making decisions that are best for the people the citizens of these countries canada the united states two greatest countries on the planet although there’s australians out there who argue and you know new zealanders are yeah yeah right yeah because your audience is worldwide so that’s crazy i shouldn’t say that in my opinion that’s all right we don’t have to be too careful here but uh but yeah as soon as things you know open up hopefully next spring we’ll get out there vancouver island do the uh you know get up there together i’d love to see the museum and see you guys and have a drink and uh and go after some black bear and all that sort of thing and then at some point i’d love to get up to the yukon territory with you as well that would be amazing most pure wilderness left in this world is is spectacular you gotta come bring your bring your your boat well well it’s it’s uh i i you know again it’s it’s one of those things where words can’t how do you describe something and you know i i you know i’ve written a thousand articles and you know you have the results of some of my efforts in front of you but there just are things that can’t be described in words that i i’m not good enough maybe someone is but if they are i haven’t read it yet and and that’s you know no offense but when you stand up there i think it’s touching your ancestral soul yeah you’re it’s it’s it’s not your primal it’s not that you’re primitive it’s you know again i keep coming back to the word pure but there just isn’t enough words but you come up there there’s one no i can’t wait and there’s been a few times where i’ve seen things that i’ve i i reach for my camera or my iphone to take a picture of and i stop and i don’t do it because i know that the photograph isn’t going to capture the feeling and i want to remember i want to ruin it with by taking the photo so sometimes i’m conflicted about that especially if i’m with the kids or the family i’m like let’s get it quick get in there let me do this um but there are definitely things that i places that i’ve been and and scenes and landscapes that i can remember that i did not take a photo of just because i didn’t want to ruin it with that technology i just wanted to feel it yeah i hear you i almost i again you know back to the novel that that i think sometimes art is the only way an artist an artist can sometimes capture it a great great artist in a moment of inspiration that maybe happens once in their lifetime twice who knows um i think they’re they’re some kind of a you know they’re the the voice of that feeling and and you know you know figuratively speaking but yeah you can’t i don’t know i i i’m with you 100 you take a picture it kind of denigrates the yeah it doesn’t it doesn’t pay enough respect i don’t know it’s something like that it’s a two-dimensional if you can’t but you you come up there there’s one spot i’ll you and i will stand on there and you’ll see 30 miles this way 30 miles this way three miles across the valley flat and you know moose and the mountain birch are red and the ma or the willows are yellow and the caribou moss is white and the peaks will be in snow it it just like i say like i can blabber about it and i can you know show you a picture but it’s you got to be there so oh no i can’t wait i can’t well you’ve done an amazing job capturing that the way you have over the years um with all the with the different shows and everything else that you’ve done really bringing that that to people and inspiring people to go out even if it’s not hunting just to get out after whatever they want to get out in life um so so you’ve you’ve brought uh you’ve introduced so many people reconnected them i think is a way to put it because we’re all i think somehow connected to the land we’re connected to those animals um somehow deep down inside us were removed but it’s such a slim section of our our existence as human beings uh that we’ve been able to outsource that defense to call 911 in this country or to go down to the grocery store and pick something up off the shelf that is like this much if that much of human history the rest of it we had to be connected to the land we had to be connected to the animals we had to be connected to these tools that allowed us to put food on the table and then defend the tribe defend our families defend that gift of life and uh there’s something inside us it’s still in there it has to be because everyone has ancestors that were good at those things or at least they had friendships with people that were good at those things made some alliances there they were smart enough to do that um so it’s in there somewhere so when they see that show and they see you standing up there they see you in one of these countries that you’re in especially with uncharted where you guys captured that um was it was incredible um it stirs something in in you and uh and and these peoples and and regardless of what they want to do in life i think it inspires them whether they’re going to climb some 10 000 foot mountain somewhere after some exotic animal or just start paint a picture or do something that they that uh that they’ve been putting off uh i think there’s there’s so many other things just besides uh show is kind of kind of uh chronicling the journey of the hunt that uh that you’ve done for people through these this visual meeting medium of the the shows that you’ve done um and i think that’s probably the biggest benefit to people out there that never set foot of field but do something that they that they want they’ve been putting off because they saw what you did um and they’re so inspired by it that now now they go down and they learn how to sail or they you know do that thing that they wanted to do or they go go to machu picchu or whatever it is whatever that thing is that they wanted to do that they’ve been putting off and they see what you’re out there doing they’re inspired and then off they go to do their own that thing that they’ve been putting off for so long which is really cool i think yeah that we’ve all that’s been our goal you know to awaken that in people and and not not to motivate them that comes that comes from yourself motivation is internal but you know to inspire them to act you know and i’ve said it a million times you know we get one life we get one life there’s no redos and and do-overs and so if it if you got one life why would you spend any of it you know not living it like you would want to live i mean it makes no sense now of course there’s rules but you you have to you know make your decisions on and not let somebody make decisions for you and say well i got to do this because they say no no you don’t no you can live your life and and if it means going out learning how to sail go do it you know what and that that freedom i think that self-determination self-reliance and you know self-confidence they’re all tied together yeah and and uh if we if we’ve inspired people then i i would i would be thrilled that i you know think that when i you know finally closed my eyes forever that uh that was that was a life well spent and so when i hear this i gained from you i didn’t come on this so to get my head’s going to get this big i’m going to have to get a bigger size hat oh no no i think you’ve doubt you’ve definitely done that you’ve definitely been an inspiration to me and countless others um and what did you think you first was that innate uh essentially from birth just knowing that hey we have one ride on this planet i’m gonna make the the most of it i’m gonna be positive i’m gonna uh contribute uh like where did that come from because uh you know growing up uh where did you where do you i think you got your first deer at age uh like 1314 somewhere in there right um and then when did you decide you were going to go down this path into what was called the hunting industry or you were going to be an outfitter or you were going to be have some touch point with this natural world was that just from birth or was there some point along the way where you realized hey you know what i’ve got one ride on this planet this is my passion i’m on it yeah you know i absolutely i was a hunter my earliest memories are and i i think i was only about two or three years old my dad and my uncles were tearing down a an old granary and and i remember being at the farm and and uh turning over bricks and seeing earthworms and beetles and you know trying to catch them i mean that’s hunter i was a hunter from that you know then mice later on and gophers and rabbits where i could actually start to bring food i did bring the mice and the gophers back my mom wasn’t too impressed with that and you know that apparently they weren’t something you’re you were supposed to eat but once i got into rabbits and whatnot it you know then you really start seeing the full cycle you know life against death we got sleep we got stuff so so i was a hunter but but that doesn’t you know that you know it was a two-part question it you know i i watched my dad he grew up in the in the dirty 30s and and uh you know no money dirt poor and and he got a job and he stayed at that job for 40 years 45 years and i remember the the conversations at the dining room table were always the same was he going to get laid off next month you know would we have enough money to buy food this this uh my youngest memories of dinner conversations and and i watched my dad and and uh saw how he had his soul sucked out of him doing you know he was good at what he did there’s no question and he took pride in what he did you know if you’re going to be a ditch digger you’d be the best darn ditch digger you know any job worth doing is worth doing well um but he he had choices taken away from i i you know i’d like to believe that you know in my case i looked at that at a very young age like i said i grew up in a trailer park uh one one of the reasons our museum is donation only is because i would have loved a place like that i would have lived there i would have been the curator’s nightmare i’d have been there every single day uh but if there was a cover charge i could never have gone to it period so our museum is donation only and that’s just for that one little me out there somewhere that doesn’t have enough money but if you know that’s who they are they you know they can walk through there every single day not pay a penny and and so i watching my dad and my mom struggle and i just determined at that point that no one was ever gonna lord over me uh i was never gonna i was i was effectively unemployable at a very young age because i wanted to determine my own destiny and i wanted to be who i was going to be and what i wanted to be i wanted to fail and succeed on me not because someone decides i can get a raise and and you know a promotion i mean someone decides that for me you’ve got to be kidding me it was uh so i was i don’t know maybe it’s something but i i was different than my father in that sense you know i i remember um 1981 interest rates went up to 23 percent without fancy myself a real estate developer and i was building three apartment blocks in the interior british columbia and had 10 houses going up now i was it wasn’t my money it was other people’s money opm and uh other people’s land but i i was the project manager and i was going to be a mezillionaire and interest rates went to 21 and i walked away with you know like uh my dog and my stereo and it was a crappy dog and a crappy stereo car and that was all i had but nobody lost money and you know everybody got paid back everything but um a couple years later when the interest rate started coming down again i got a call from a big developer saying hey come and work for me so i called my dad and you know i mean it was a pretty hard hit in 1981 i was in my early 20s and uh my i said dad what should i do take this job or or you know should i try again something different you know just my own and he said you know what the right thing to do is you know you take that job and you’d be thankful for the job and and and you know it was like a flashback and i said whoa and i you know phoned the guy the developer up and i thank my dad very much for his advice and then i phoned the developers and not in a million years and i went into i went into ethnocentric art is what i did was dealing in art uh really yeah yeah but i mean i was i’m talking about starting with 50 art yeah i was looking in garage sales for for great art well you read the you read the book i read it oh my goodness that’s amazing how there’s so much personal i mean it’s amazing the water polo is in here of course and i knew that part because i’ve seen you post some of those great old flashback fridays or throwback thursday pictures or whatever i love those from the 70s and 80s and you know those are amazing pictures i love when you do that but uh that’s incredible so you got went into artwork like that finding tracking these things down and what did you do with them at that at that point when you found something what did you do i i sold them i mean that’s i i restored them and and sold them uh uh i had some pretty fancy clientele i mean ralph lauren eventually came in and bought out my entire inventory of the sort of commercial grade stuff we furnished all his uh yeah his countries when he was you know he had the polo stores but he’s tried country stores and so we think he did six and we we furnished all those and uh amazing and then i use that money to get into outfitting because i kind of walked from there there wasn’t the treasure hunting part of it is a very important part for me and i had combed western canada for those ethnocentric folk forms the vernaculars like duke or mennonite hutterite ukrainian ethnocentric furniture idiosyncratic folk art as well but mostly mostly on the ethnic side and and and there just wasn’t any anything left so i i used to take truckloads down to it was in the book down to hollywood and and we would empty out one of my clients homes and and cater and valet parking and flowers and and then invite all the the uh movie stars in and they would buy the stuff out of the house we delivered and then put all the furniture back in the house and and head back up to canada that’s it that’s why you know yeah no i yeah that’s incredible i didn’t know that part was uh was real that’s incredible i’m tough there’s very it’s amazing that’s not real wow i mean wow that’s it jeez uh i caught the raffle and of course reference and i caught the chris pratt reference also that was very cool that was awesome uh well that’s a so when did you make this transition then to uh becoming an outfitter or did you apprentice first and did you have to go through this canada have that kind of a guide program where you work your way up kind of like a canada or a uh alaska has those apprenticeship program or not programs but the years you have to spend at these different levels how did that transition from doing this art and selling this art transition into well i had i had three stores in vancouver antique stores art stores and folk art interiors was the name and i uh in between you know the slow days and there were slow days i started writing so this would have been 1984. i wrote my first hunting article and and always my intention from a young age has been in the hunting industry i didn’t know if i’d be you know bill jordan selling camo patterns or or t-shirts i didn’t know i just wanted to be an outdoor you know hunting fishing industry somehow thank goodness i didn’t know about mountain climbing back then being born in saskatchewan i’m telling you i would have been the the 14 000 or the 14 000 meter peaks or what are they um well you’ve done i mean it looks like you’ve done quite a bit of that type of thing especially if people go back and watch uh watch some of the uncharted stuff yeah oh my goodness but i i would uh i you know those draw me like a moth to a flame i would have died on the mountain because to me unlike ed biesters you know it said you know it’s what is it imperative getting to the top is optional getting down but you know i didn’t live my life like that it was you know no attaining the goal was imperative and then figure out a way to get home if you have to jump you jump you know but i would have died so i’m glad i didn’t know about that but i i did uh i started writing for hunting magazines back in 1984 as i was doing the uh ethnocentric art and yeah you can go get old country living magazines 1984 actually i dabbled in modeling as well there you go that’s in the in the book there we go vogue magazine you can look it up 1984 september they’re you know that’s amazing in the same jacket that you describe in there yeah yeah that’s incredible i love it yeah that’s amazing yeah it’s just like like you know back to what we were talking about earlier you get one life so so why not why not live the life that you were destined to live not a life that someone else tells you you have to live or should live or for whatever reason you know i’m a doctor son so you got to be a doctor no you don’t you know my dad was a road construction superintendent yeah and a heavy duty mechanic i’m sure his and and a pilot that he had to stop flying when he got married because he couldn’t afford you know to actually fly his own airplane so wow so he uh he gave that up you know he yeah i mean he read every single airplane magazine that ever existed and had to live vicariously through a you know a 49 magazine and and listen to the airplanes talk on his little i don’t know vhf whatever yeah i don’t run and you know but he couldn’t fly you know didn’t have the money had to raise kids and you know bought one gun in his life that got stolen eventually out of my safe in our ranch but anyway a lot that’s another story you get you get one life so you know live it live it i i say you know people are afraid of of failing you know afraid of i don’t know if i can do that and what if i fail you know i and i say if if you spend your whole life sitting on a couch at home worried about what might happen nothing ever will that’ll be it that’ll be it your entire life will be on that couch nothing happened you know good job you know you got to get out there and try things and to me i’ve i’ve never been afraid to try i’ve suffered the slings and arrows you know it doesn’t really hurt that bad it’s like you don’t like me really you know i i’m i’m no less a person because i fail if that novel never gets published you know it won’t be it won’t be because i’m a lesser problem i don’t take that person i know how good it is yeah i know how good i am i know what i’ve done so so that’s what when you live your life true to who you are you never have a regret ever i can’t even imagine being on my deathbed and oh you know there was one thing i wish no no there’s nothing i knew you loved it you know you know you know i mean i don’t know if they’re in the thousands hundreds you know lots of people that that live that same thing yeah and it’s that’s when you can look somebody in the eye anybody in the eye and say yeah i’m your equal you know there’s nobody better there may you know you equal yes but nobody better and you know it sounds arrogant but it’s not it’s just it’s just you know who you are and and you know this is the best i can be and and that’s how i’ve always lived my life uh fearlessly and and uh and as honestly truthfully with honor i mean all those those good things yeah you know yeah that is that is amazing that is amazing and i know we’re coming up on time i can talk to you for hours and hours but i love what you just said right there so i might want to when we’re finished it off on that because like you said so many people just for whatever reason they they do spend time thinking about that failure and worried about that failure and not getting off back not giving it a shot and not knowing that hey these failures are going to make build this character that i can then turn future future i can turn that into wisdom going forward and i can pass along these lessons to my kids so that we all get better and and get stronger as as a family as a society and we keep moving forward um so that’s for me that’s kind of the uh i don’t know when i look at what’s going on out there today and i look at our our three kids here and uh and all the distractions that they have in the the world that they’re even if they’re you know we’re shielding i mean it’s not really shielding because it’s they’re getting these inputs uh all the time all day every day from the devices to the teachers to wearing masks to just seeing people in masks um and all that sort of it’s just a it’s a strange kind of feeling that’s out there in the air and so i always try to encourage people to get into pages of books get into like this one right here this amazing book that you wrote right here we’re going to talk about going to come up with a plan we’re going to get this out there because it’s so special it’s so incredible um but i encourage everybody to get in the pages of these novels get in the pages of these books put the requisite time energy and effort into the study of history so that we can make good decisions for future generations because we live both of us live in countries where people sacrifice so much so we could have these freedoms and these options and opportunities that we do um and whether it was a in our families or if it was people we didn’t even know for the most part sacrificing everything so that we could be free and uh we owe them the that time spent in the pages of these books so that we can make good decisions going forward and we’re not um discrediting their memory discrediting what they did for us by taking away these freedoms that we’ve been been given so um yeah we’re going to figure out how to get this thing this thing out there because it is it is so special and uh we’re also going to figure out a way to get together in lanai again because uh yeah i mean i didn’t make it out there with you last time you’re out there with john dubin at uh at pineapple brothers out there uh and it’s so special for me to be involved in that in that place such a great area for families to get together especially if some of them aren’t hunting uh they can lie by the pool and have a dinner at nobu or whatever else but it’s a it’s a pretty cool place so we’ll get you back out there of course you’re always welcome to to come on out and we’ll we’ll figure figure it all it all out and and uh and get out there and enjoy that island it’s a pretty special place and the yukon iran hawaii yukon vancouver island it’s uh we’ll we’ll make it happen sounds wonderful sounds wonderful and uh speaking of that one life to live and and and all the rest of that what you’ve done so much uh you inspired so many people what when you look ahead now what are you what are you seeing uh ahead uh what’s that path ahead you have this museum you have this amazing art you’re passing on all this is all this knowledge all this wisdom all this uh inspiration like what do you see next in the next 10 years going forward do you look that far ahead or what are you what are you thinking oh yeah no no i i uh well number one i i have to get down to a scratch golfer you know that’s right i didn’t talk to you about golf yeah 74 yesterday with two when did you get that bug when did you get the golfing bug i’ve had one lesson and one set of clubs because uh uh dear friend was on the board at callaway so i have a great set of clubs one lesson one charity golf tournament but that’s my golfing experience uh yeah i was 40. i’d never go off before in my life like i said we didn’t grow up with anything like that that was fancy um but when i was 40 i was driving by a golf course and i i looked and there’s a bunch of guys in their 60s 70s golfing and you know it’s a it’s a a sport you know it’s a you have to be an athlete and and i you know water polo football baseball i can do all that stuff but you can’t do it at 40 no matter what anybody thinks it just looks dumb but those were good and and i was looking at them they were carrying their clubs and they’re walking and i you know kind of checked it’s like six miles to walk and you carry your clubs up and down hills and you swing and you bend over and do all kinds of stuff so i thought yeah that’s that’s a sport that i’m gonna pick up now so that when i’m old i can play it so i i went out with uh i remember it was two professional hockey players my brother-in-law and me and he’s a fairly decent golfer they shot seven 83 and my brother-in-law shot i shot 137 and i didn’t cheat i said i want to know the rules so i have a benchmark here’s where i’m going to start 137 i was never so humiliated i thought i was an athlete you know good hand-eye coordination how hard can this be just hit a stupid little ball holy smokes did i learn i was humbled and uh so i i practiced from when i was 40 to 50 and then i traveled too much for 10 years and when we bought our place in pinehurst north carolina kind of gulf central um and our son-in-law tim brandex professional hockey player he’s he’s a scratch golfer so i said he’s a great guy yeah a great guy the father-in-law i had to uh step up to the plate again so at 60 i started playing a game and uh let me tell you something from from 50 to 60 you lose a lot of well so for the i’m 63 now last three years i’ve been just fighting to get back down to where i was when i quit at 50. so i shot 74 yesterday and that’s you know down to about a six handicap so it’s it’s getting there but i’d love you know so back to your question uh i’d love to play in the super senior 65 years of age and be competitive uh just on the athletics i just would keep me you know those juices flowing the competitive juices but honestly i i figured i’d be writing i honestly thought i’ve always from when i gained i started my first novel when i was 10. same time was that museum and and i’ve got you know false starts all the way through my life and and it just wasn’t time and now it is time and i’ve got the time and so it’s been a little bit frustrating i got to tell you to be able to spend so much time at golf and not the thing that i you know was pulling here at my heart that i want to get these these novels out there and get them done and so that’s what i planned now i’ve also been approached to uh run for the conservative party up here in canada federally i was wondering about that yeah i i they asked me 25 years ago too and i said no i had a life i wanted to live that wasn’t in politics uh you know now i have i really seriously considered recently this last one i when they asked i i because if good people don’t step up and i don’t know i’m judging myself as a good person just somebody with common sense that cares about the citizen i’m not doing it for money i don’t care if you get re-elected or i do you just need some direction in this world and when everybody’s too afraid to step up to the plate because who needs it you really want to get crucified by you know every idiot that wants to take you down for no reason other than they just don’t like the way you think you know it’s so so good people have to start stepping forward that’s what democracy that’s how it works so i you know i thought okay or maybe i’ll we’ll throw my but then i i actually turned it down because i thought i’d be writing the sequel already and you know the time that takes so you cannot be running back and forth to ottawa capital and and uh and be running the country or at least contributing to the running of the country and writing a novel so i i said no to them so my my hope is that that wasn’t you know i didn’t uh throw that away but i did tell him that the next election that i would be you know come and talk to me that i’ll i’ll be older wiser by four years and and hopefully have the next couple sequels done and unlike yourself we’ve got a whole lifetime ahead of them yeah my years are limited it’s time to give back to to our society to you know uh you know my fellow canadians is how i feel so wow that’s amazing so when is that when would you have to make a decision on that then you have to well this pain you’d have to do all that i mean you have to get uh nominated first of all and then you know you have to win the nomination for the party that you’re running for and then then you have to campaign against the other parties and in our constituency here that i live it’s it’s it’s way left-wing so so you know there really isn’t a conservative voice here at all um but i’m not saying that the fellow that’s there isn’t you know doesn’t have good intentions they do everybody does well not that’s not true what did i just say wash my mouth so if every politician has good intention but but uh you know i just think there we’ve we’


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